How to Dementia-Proof Your Brain: Dr. David Perlmutter on Hormones, Gut Health, and Inflammation

Transcript

Welcome back to the podcast. Today’s episode is one of the most important conversations we have had in a long
time, because we’re talking about brain health, dementia prevention, and what you can start doing right now to
protect your brain for the long term. Joining me today, I am so happy to have Doctor David Perlmutter. He is a
neurologist, a best selling author, and one of the most recognized voices in the world of brain health. On his official
site, he highlights his books, including Grain, Brain and Drop Acid. He also has a podcast, The Empowering
Neurologist, which focuses on topics like Alzheimer’s prevention, nutrition, aging, and cutting edge wellness
conversations. His new book, which just came out Brain Defenders, is now available for purchase on Amazon. And we
talked a ton about this book. In this episode, we are digging into the alarming reality of dementia and why this
conversation matters so much, especially for women. I see this in my practice, you guys. According to the
Alzheimer’s Association, almost two thirds of Americans with Alzheimer’s are women, and 33.4% of people age 85
and older have Alzheimer’s dementia. That number is 50% in people 80 or older. 1 in 2 Americans that make it to 80
will have dementia. And that is alarming. And so we are going to talk about why and what you can do to prevent this.
We talk about everything that you need to know what you can do in your 30s and 40s to lower your risk and build a
healthier brain over time. How to address inflammation, which is what drives brain issues. How to improve your
sleep, how to clean up your diet, how to fix your gut. And we have the conversation about bioidentical hormone
replacement therapy as a bigger part of prevention strategy in women.
We talk about how the w h. I unfortunately took millions of women off of hormones, and we are seeing the negative
side effects of that now. This neurologist is all about hormone replacement therapy. If it is bioidentical done, and he
talks about the studies being done to show this is actually beneficial. And when you put women on estrogen therapy,
whether they get dementia or not. He also is good with testosterone. We talk about testosterone and what it does
with your brain. We talk about why lifestyle matters so much when it comes to cognitive decline, and why waiting
until symptoms appear is far too late. We also have the statin conversation. Is this good? Is this bad? You’ll have to
listen to the end to get all of that information. If you have ever wondered what really moves the needle for brain
health, what women need to know about dementia risk, or how gut health hormones, sleep, statins, inflammation all
connect. This is an episode you do not want to miss. Let’s get into it. I am so excited to have Doctor Perlmutter on the
podcast today. You guys know I’m a huge advocate of brain health, longevity, health, etc.. Well, we have kind of like
one of the godfathers of dementia on the podcast today. He’s written several books, just had one come out called
Brain Defenders, and we’re going to unpack dementia. What’s true about it? What’s not true about it? How do we
help prevent it? Do hormones make it better or worse? And so thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Thank you. I’ve never been called the Godfather of dementia before, but there’s always time for a first here.
I mean, you’ve spent.

Your career working on it, right? I mean, you’ve done a lot of research. You’ve written a book. I mean, do you feel like
it’s one of the things that are very near and dear to your heart? Because talking to you for five minutes, I feel like it
is.
It very much so. And yeah, I mean, this is Brain Defenders, my new book, that’s number 16 for me. So I’ve been kind
of at this whole, you know, massaging this idea of getting the message out, which is what you and I are going to talk
about today that we, each of us is the architect of our brain’s destiny. Who knew? I mean, we live in a world. We were
talking about this prior to our recording today that, you know, we’re told pretty much do whatever you want, live your
life however you choose, and there’ll be a magic drug or some approach pharmaceuticals that will be there to save
you. And as it relates to the decline of brain health and function, that is not reality. It’s not a good plan. That way of
solving the problem does not exist as we’re having this conversation. So you are 100% right. It’s all about prevention.
It’s all about doing what we need to do. That’s what we’re going to talk about today. How do we not end up in the
Neurologist’s office suddenly having cognitive issues? That’s that’s our plan.
Yeah. And to me, it’s very dear to my heart because I’ve taken care of patients now for over ten years, which is kind
of crazy. But I see the breakdown in cognitive function in people as they get into their 60s 70s. And I know the ones
that’s going to be worse in. And unfortunately, we’re stuck in this era where a lot of women have been told that
hormones are terrible. All hormones get lumped into one bucket because of 2001 and WHI and we are seeing the
aftermath of that now, I think because women are getting sicker when it comes to brain health and heart health, not
better. And so I love that. In your new book, you set the stage for, hey, we have these drugs for dementia that don’t
make people live longer, that cost a ton of money, that aren’t really helping anything. Like we don’t have monoclonal
antibody deficiencies in our brain, but we do have receptors in our brain for things like vitamin D and hormones. And
so it just doesn’t make sense. And I love that you put it in a book and went out there and said it, and then I loved it.
Yeah. And I want to unpack that with you because you know a lot more about this than I do. I’m just making a, you
know, what I’ve told my patients is like from ten plus years of practice and taking care of thousands of women. This is
what I’m seeing. I’m seeing that people are getting demented more and more. I see that the people that are
demented are the people that don’t take care of themselves from a metabolic standpoint, a movement standpoint,
and a hormone standpoint.
Brilliant observation.
We’ve got to do something about it. But then if you go to the studies, you know, the drug companies say, let’s give
them drugs. And it just doesn’t make sense.
You’re right, you know, and in the book, and I’ve been very public about this, my opposition, if you will, to the idea
that these drugs do anything they don’t, those monoclonal antibodies that target beta amyloid in an attempt to cure
Alzheimer’s don’t work. And it’s not just that the guest on your podcast today is telling you that just a couple of
months ago, a Cochrane analysis came out, and this was an evaluation of 17 studies looking at these beta amyloid
targeting drugs to have an effect in Alzheimer’s compromising, rather comprised of 20,345 individuals. And over
these studies, each about 18 months long. And their conclusion was their word that the effectiveness of this drug
approach is, again, their word, were trivial. They don’t have an effect in terms of even slowing down the rate of
decline cognitively in Alzheimer’s patients in the face of 20 to 25% of these people getting hemorrhages in their
brain, swelling in their brain, or even dying. So when we look at risk and benefit, the risk is ridiculous. And the benefit
is again, their word trivial. And these drugs were FDA approved and seem to be the go to. You know, when mom or
dad or loved other loved one is having cognitive decline. That’s the best we can do. And I say exactly playing into
your hand. No, it isn’t the best we can do. We’ve got to keep people healthy with respect to their brains. And, you
know, you mentioned something a moment ago that I think was really interesting. You said, you know, people in their
50s and 60s suddenly developing some cognitive issues and getting concerned. That’s way down the continuum. We
need to target people in their 30s and 40s because that’s when the seeds are sown for brain decline.

It’s the metabolic issues, the insulin resistance, the elevated blood sugar, blood pressure, body weight, waist size,
etc. that are beginning to occur in our 30s and 40s that are causing the shift in the brain’s immune cells away from
being supportive to being destructive. That’s the central thesis of the new book, Brain Defenders. That happens long
before you’re forgetting the Wi-Fi code or grandchildren’s names. So, you know, we tend to focus on people in their
60s and 70s. Maybe you should have some cognitive evaluation now that’s for me. I think that’s interesting and not a
bad plan, but a better plan is to target people in their 30s and 40s. And you know, you are in the catbird seat for
dealing with these people. Why? Because you’re dealing primarily with women. And guess what? Two thirds of
Alzheimer’s patients are women. And that should tell us something that we do need to pay attention to hormones.
We do need to pay attention to metabolic issues earlier in life. I’ve said this on many interviews. A quote that I really
like is from John F Kennedy, and it was the time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining. And I know that’s been, you
know, I don’t know if you’ve used that quote before, but it’s really what you are all about and the work that you’ve
been doing. So it’s time that we really rewrite the whole story on Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s and all the major
neurodegenerative conditions, because they are fundamentally a change in the brain’s immune system that leads to
the decline of the function of brain cells and their connections, the synapses, and that shift in the brain’s immune
system from being friendly to being destructive is something over which each of us has control.
I think that’s so fascinating. I kind of as you’re saying that to me. You know, that’s part of why I wrote my book, too,
talking about gut health and hormones, because a lot of your immune system lives in your gut. And I talk about in the
book how when the immune system of your gut becomes unfriendly because of insulin resistance, because of
trauma, because of stress, lack of sleep, whatever, and it’s not able to do what it’s supposed to do, which is take in
micronutrients, digest our food process hormones, make hormones, we get this big issue and it’s this nasty cycle. But
when you were just explaining that to me, I also thought about Hashimoto’s. It’s almost like you have Hashimoto’s of
your brain, what you’re describing, because you’re saying how your immune system turns from good to bad, and it
almost starts like eating or damaging your neurons. And it kind of gets to a point where it’s irreversible. That’s what I
tell my patients with Hashimoto’s. Like if you’re going to eat gluten and do all these things that cause your body to
then attack your thyroid, I mean, your thyroid can kind of defend itself for a minute, but eventually it’s like it gets to a
point where it’s sort of you can’t go backwards. And so it’s very interesting when you’re saying that I’m imagining like
all of these things that we do in our 20s and 30s because we think we’re invincible slowly, like attacking the neurons
of our brain, and then sometimes they just don’t come back to working. And it may take years to see that, but
unfortunately, a lot of the damage is probably happening when people don’t realize it’s happening.
So it’s very true. And I would say that, you know, the the idea of reversibility with respect to cognitive issues is
something that we never could appreciate before, and now we find it’s reality. I mean, one study recently was done
by Doctor Rudolph Tanzi and Doctor Dean Ornish at Harvard, and it took a small, relatively small group, 51 people
who had Alzheimer’s. They were diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease. And with what I’m about to tell you, I want you
to think about what I’m telling you right now in the context of what the Alzheimer’s drugs were designed to do. The
Alzheimer’s drugs were designed to simply slow the decline. All right, now let’s talk about this new study. What did
these well-respected researchers do? They took this group of individuals 51, and they followed them for 20 weeks
doing a cognitive assessment at the beginning and at the end. These are Alzheimer’s patients. What was the
intervention? Diet, exercise and stress reduction. What happened to these patients? Did they slow the decline of
Alzheimer’s? No. They actually arrested the decline. And in 70% of the people in the study diagnosed with
Alzheimer’s, either the decline stopped completely or they actually had improvement in their cognitive function. No
drug, no monoclonal antibody, no IVs at $40,000 a year.
They simply changed their lifestyle activities. So it’s a new dawn, and it’s very hard to sell that because you can’t own
it. How could you? There’s nothing proprietary here. There’s nothing patentable. That’s where the big bucks are. And
that’s the brass ring. But that’s why we’re talking today, because people need to know that, you know, there is a way
out and it’s time that we we stand up and get counted that a, the drugs aren’t working. B the brain is dramatically
responsive to our lifestyle choices as they influence our metabolism, the metabolism of the microglial cells, these
brain immune cells that are either friend or foe is what determines whether they’re going to be supportive or
destructive. We can image brains in living humans and determine when those microglial cells have become
destructive. I call that in the book The Evil Twin. You can see it’s called a Tspo scan. The Tspo scan, when it’s positive,
is seen to indicates that these microglial cells are now destroying the brain as opposed to supporting the brain and
tspo imaging is positive in Alzheimer’s, as you would expect in Parkinson’s, in multisystem atrophy, progressive
supranuclear palsy, multiple sclerosis, post-traumatic stress disorder, long Covid, fibromyalgia, and even major
depressive disorder.

So it really starts to throw a very large net that when we compromise the metabolism of the microglial cells, they
shift to becoming non-supportive. Otherwise, they’re going to nurture our neurons, keep the blood brain barrier
working, keep those synapses connected, all the good things, right? But when their metabolism is challenged, then
they shift to becoming destructive in the brain. Here’s the take home point. Their metabolism mirrors your body’s
metabolism. Oh my goodness. That means that my body metabolism is reflected in my microglial cells. My brain
immune cells, and determines whether they’re going to create an environment good for my brain or bad for my brain.
Once you get that, you then can explain why it is that being a type two diabetic is associated with a three fold
increased risk of developing Alzheimer’s. An 85% increased risk of becoming a Parkinson’s patient. We always knew
the associations existed. We’ve known that for, I think, three decades, but we never understood why. And it’s
because our metabolism is reflected in the metabolism of our brains immune cells. When our metabolism is
challenged, our blood sugar goes up, our blood pressure goes up, our body weight goes up, the microglial cells turn
their backs on us, and the brain goes to pot.
I think that’s all so fascinating. And it’s so true. Like, you know, they call dementia type three diabetes. I see it in my
patients. And you said something too, which I think is interesting. We actually talked about in our clinic doing, I
wouldn’t call it a mini mental status exam, but like we have patients check off symptoms as far as like thyroid
symptoms and hormone symptoms. And I realized a lot of our thyroid and hormone symptom checklists, a lot of
those are actually, you know, cognitive symptoms as well. And it is frightening how many 20 and 30 year olds have
severe brain fog, like can’t remember things to the point where they’re getting put on ADHD medications and
stimulants and all this crazy stuff that I’m like, this is nuts. Right. And I don’t know if I think a lot of it, to your point is
stress and not sleeping. Right. And our diet and insulin resistance, I, I see those people have a lot of metabolic issues.
I kindly refer to some of my patients as metabolic dumpster fires because their CRP is high and their insulin is high
and their T3 is low.

And but there is a correlation with the more symptoms that you have, whether it be gut symptoms, thyroid
symptoms, hormone symptoms, the more of those become cognitive. And so I guess what I really want to focus on
with you, a couple of things. I want to bring this to light to people that yes, in your 20s and 30s, we need to be
thinking about our brains. What can we do to, you know, is it I think what we’re talking about is not sexy, right? It’s
it’s sleep. And it’s like you said, you can’t make a lot of money off of it. And it’s not this big heavy infusion. What do
people need to be thinking about in their 20s and 30s or 40s or, you know, they’re listening to this now in their 50s
and they’re like, oh my gosh, what can I do? What do we think about to start preventing having these issues? And I
want you to talk to also alcohol, marijuana stimulants. Are these good? Bad? Doesn’t matter because I get this
question.
There’s a lot of questions here. So let me back up a little bit. And yesterday I was sent a list of questions from Vogue
magazine and they said ultimately, what was the number one thing people can do action right now? That would be
the best thing they could be doing for their brain health. And you know what, Doctor Cass, you just talked about?
Well, is it sleep? Is it exercise? Is it diet? All those things are all matter. Of course they’re matter. They matter a lot.
But the number one thing is to embrace the fact that you are in charge of your brain health. That’s the most
important thing you can do. Because if you don’t do that, then the other things aren’t going to happen, and therefore
you’re not going to put into play any of those salubrious activities that you just mentioned. So job one is to rewrite
that narrative that it’s not offloaded to a third party to mop up the disaster once it’s occurred and your brain health is
suddenly declining. That’s at the very end stage. Even when you’re starting to have senior moments, well before
even mild cognitive impairment or even before that subjective cognitive impairment, long before the diagnosis of
Alzheimer’s. If you’re already at that stage where you’re noticing that you’re going into a room, you don’t know why,
and things are becoming more challenging, that’s well into the continuum.
And again, it’s very, very early on where we want people to get this message because it’s not just about cognitive
decline. It’s about, as you well mentioned, your brain’s functioning today moment to moment. You mentioned brain
fog. There’s no reason that a 30 year old should be in your office saying, you know, I just can’t keep my stuff
together. I, you know, I’m just it’s too much for me. That is a manifestation. And you alluded to it of a metabolic issue
because of the downstream relationships of metabolic issues being inflammation. When there’s inflammation
anywhere in the body, the microglial cells, the brain’s immune cells can sense that, and it shifts them to being the
evil twin. So now next step, what is important in your 30s and 40s? And I’d say, you know, there are some very
sophisticated tests that are now available to people. And you mentioned, should we be doing a mini mental status
test on these people. I would say far more traction will be gained by looking at their fasting blood sugar, by getting a
very, very high tech machine in your office and even in your home called a tape measure and put that tape measure
device. You don’t even have to plug it in. Put a tape measure around your belly.

These are hugely important as surrogate markers for brain declining risk. And in the book, we talk about some really
exciting high tech things. Neurofilament light and Tau 217. All these great things that are available now, etc. but the
fundamentals are know your fasting blood sugar, know your fasting insulin level, your a one C maybe get a marker of
inflammation, your C-reactive protein, look at your waist to hip ratio. That’s the home run. Now once you understand
that, you’ll understand where you are in terms of your risk category. And make no mistake about it, if you’re already
having metabolic issues in your 30s and 40s. And quite likely the answer to that question is going to be. Yep.
Because in America, if you look at American adults, 94% of Americans has at least one metabolic issue related to
metabolic dysfunction. So that means only 6% of us are metabolically intact. So when I said, most likely that’s many
of your viewers. That’s just reality. So again, the time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining. Get your metabolic
house in order in your 30s and 40s such that when you suddenly wake up one morning on your 70th birthday, and I
will tell your viewers, it comes very, very quickly, surprisingly, that you’re still going to be with it cognitively able to
interact with people yourself, your environment at a very, very high level or not.
But that ball has been hit to your side of the court. And if nothing else gets translocated to your viewers during our
time together, it’s that message that we are the arbiters of our brain’s destiny, based upon getting our metabolic
house in order, getting our blood sugar where it needs to be, maximizing insulin functionality, making sure we don’t
find time for exercise, that we make time for exercise, recognizing that our social interactions increase the level of
oxytocin in our bloodstream and in our brains, and that our brain’s immune cells, these microglial cells that can be
either friend or brain destructive, are sensitive to oxytocin. Oxytocin keeps them in their loving, supportive M2
configuration. When we don’t have connection with other people, our oxytocin levels fall. And then these brain cells
turn their backs on us and digest away our vital connections. One neuron to the next. That is so important so that we
can remain connected to ourselves and to our environments. So now through this lens of understanding the brain’s
immune system, we understand why social interaction involving ourselves in nature exercise, the right type of diet,
restorative sleep, all of these metrics are so important as seen through that lens that is upstream of everything we
do and everything we recommend.
I love that I also I agree with that wholeheartedly. I feel like the more metabolically healthy you are, the less brain
fog, etc. you have. I also talk in my book about 93 to 94% of people are metabolically unhealthy. We see that in my
practice. I would say that my practice is even a little bit healthier than the general population because they choose to
be there, and a lot of them are there for a preventative reason. And still, I check everyone’s fasting glucose and
fasting insulin. I rarely see a fasting insulin of less than five, and that’s really where it should be. And it’s, you know, I
think it’s a combination of stress, light, social media, lack of moving, lack of seeing the sun, our food, etc. and so
again, it’s not sexy and it’s not something that you can necessarily sell someone. I tell my patients this to health is
not owned, it’s rented and the rents do every single day. You can come here to me once a month, you can come here
three times a month, I can tell you, or every three months, I can tell you what you need to do, but you have to do it. I
can’t force you to do it. And that’s the problem with health, is you you have to do it. I think that people need to hear
that. But I also think that people want a quick fix and that’s the problem. And so that’s why we have 20 and 30 year
olds on stimulants, taking ADHD medication, taking all these medications and supplements because they’re like, I
just want a quick fix and I can purchase that. And that’s what we want, when in reality, that’s not what’s going to
move the needle, in my opinion. But I would love your opinion on does alcohol affect the brain? Do stimulants affect
the brain? You know, does marijuana affect the brain for positive or negative?
Well, let’s first talk about alcohol. And I think that the messaging on alcohol has certainly changed in very recent
years, as in the past couple of years, you know, the messaging that we were putting forth over time was that the
epidemiological research demonstrated that one glass of wine per day in women, two glasses of wine per day in men
was the bottom of the U-shaped curve. What does that mean? That risk of Alzheimer’s was lowest in people who
consumed that amount of alcohol. Less than that was actually associated with a slightly increased risk. And more
than that, an increased risk. And the bottom of the U-shaped curve in terms of risk was right at that one per day for
women, two per day for men. But then we realized that that’s not a fair characterization because the way alcohol is
delivered, you know, people say, well, that means alcohol is safe. Well, no, we didn’t say that. We said wine. It’s like,
let’s have a discussion about coffee. Well, what does caffeine do in the brain? We weren’t talking about caffeine. We
were talking about coffee. We’re talking about a beverage that has more than 100 chemical components, many of
which are good for inflammation, good for metabolism, and good for the brain. Same thing with alcohol. I think it
really matters what you’re drinking. There’s an upside to wine in particular red wine because of the bioflavonoids that
it contains. But that said, I think the newest information, respectfully, is that alcohol in any form is not worth the
trade off of the polyphenols.

For example, in red wine. That was the big push, right? Oh, it’s high in polyphenols from the grapes and therefore it’s
good for you. And that’s an offset to the damaging effects of alcohol. I think at this point let’s get our polyphenols
elsewhere. Alcohol is a neurotoxin. So I would say that the messaging now has changed and it really is less in favor of
alcohol Consumption. So 1 or 2 drinks a day is considered moderate alcohol consumption, not minimal. I mean that’s
considered moderate alcohol consumption. So the new messaging is that eliminating alcohol is the best bet. And
dramatically reducing it is the second best bet as it relates to marijuana. There’s not a robust data in adults about
marijuana being specifically threatening in the discussion of the CBD and the THC. We know that there are
components of the smoke, whether it is vaped, vaped, or smoked as a joint where you’re just burning the leaves that
can be threatening to the lungs and to the body in general via increased inflammation. The biggest risk that is
currently de jure in terms of the risk of marijuana is in the adolescent population with pretty. When the brain is still
developing a. Pretty significant issues in terms of a variety of specific brain development goals that are not met in
adolescents that are smoking or otherwise consuming marijuana. And finally, as it relates to stimulants, that’s a
tough one because I think that there is certainly data that indicates that stimulant exposure in the developing brain
can have significant long term consequences in terms of how the brain is actually able to develop in terms of the
network performance and network functionality.
That said, and I know this is where you were going, it really more than begs the question, should we be giving
stimulant drugs? You know, the Ritalin and Adderall type stimulant drugs to the developing brain because kids may
have a food sensitivity issue, may have inflammation coming from dysbiosis in their guts, any number of other issues
that can indeed compromise the brain’s ability to remain focus. So I think that the stimulant medications for ADHD
used in children need to be questioned. That’s being kind. I think it’s way too aggressive. You know, the fact that
these drugs are approved by the American I think it’s American Academy of Pediatrics for five year olds takes my
breath away. So I think, you know, we’ve got to do the other work. The work that you do in identifying sensitivities,
food allergies, mold in the home, issues related to sleep, any number of things. That should be what we do first
rather than just say, well, you know, your kid’s got ADHD. If you don’t want him or her to fall behind in school, you
better start giving him a stimulant medication. Let’s start today. And unfortunately, that’s the go to approach. And I
will say, I, I will reject it out of hand.
Well, and even in adults, I’ll have 20 or 30 year olds who come to see me and they’ll say, oh, well, I saw another
doctor and they said, my brain fog and fatigue is just ADHD. So they gave me a stimulant and I’m like, so you’re
telling me at 31 years old, all of a sudden you developed ADHD? Or was it that the doctor just didn’t ask you about
the fact that you drink Starbucks every morning and don’t eat anything? And so you probably have a sugar crash at
11:00 and you’re staying up late at night and you’re drinking out. I mean, you know, you’re doing all these things to
your brain that make your brain fuzzy. And so it’s just alarming to me, the number of people who come to me on
ADHD medication, even as an adult. And it’s like, no, I don’t think you have ADHD. I think you have a metabolic issue
and your brain is actually giving you a symptom, which is a gift because it’s saying, hey, I don’t like this. We need to
change it. And instead we’re just medicating it. And I think that’s what we do in kids too. And it’s, it’s really
unfortunate because, you know, I tell parents all the time, like your five year old, if you don’t feed them a good
breakfast and then you send them to school. Yeah, they’re going to act like an idiot because their glucose is high and
now it’s low and they don’t feel good and they want to move around. I mean, it’s a lot of times there’s these
symptoms are gifts and trying to tell you, hey, what we’re doing with our body is not working. We need to rethink
about it. And pediatricians don’t talk to people about that. And adult doctors don’t talk to people about that. And it’s
just kind of alarming to me because I do think we’re going to see in the future that these medications are not benign
and that we’re going to have some issues in kids whose brains are developing and then even adults. And it’s just it’s,
I don’t know.
Yeah, it’s I think we know that even now, they’re not benign. So I think back when I was a kid, my grandmother was
driving her car and a light went on the panel indicating something was wrong. She put a Band-Aid over it, an actual
Band-Aid over it. She didn’t have to look at it. And you’re right, you know, this is a signal that something is wrong.
And similarly, the accumulation in the brain of beta amyloid is not the problem in Alzheimer’s. It’s a signal that
something is wrong upstream, that there’s been a failure of the brain’s immune system to deal with beta amyloid,
Enhancing its production and leading to it not being able to get rid of it as it would normally do. So you are right. And
again, by the time people are experiencing those issues with cognitive function, we’re well down that continuum. So
the message here is let’s act earlier. And for those individuals that you are seeing who are complaining of brain fog
can’t multitask all the things, you know, we live in a very demanding world now where people really need to perform
at their highest level. And I think with the various large language models that are available out there, AI, that people
feel even more stressed because there’s the idea that ChatGPT may replace me at my work. So people really feel
compelled to have to work even harder now to prove themselves, and might well be noticing that they’re not firing on
all cylinders for the exact reason that you mentioned.

Inflammation is not kind to the brain that inflammation can come from any number of sources from a, you know, lack
of diversity of gut microbes through gut permeability and increased inflammation that way through reactions to
certain foods for which people may be sensitive. For crashes, as you mentioned in blood sugar, because you’re
starting your day with a high carb meal, and by 10:00, you’re busting open a vending machine because you’re finding
that you’re in trouble. I mean, we’ve been there. I remember being in my residency. We would be up all night in
surgery, and then in the morning, we’d go to the pediatrics floor and raid the refrigerator, because the baby foods
back then had so much sugar. And the Gerber or Beech-nut banana was just to die for delicious. But it was like 28g of
sugar and a little baby food thing. Who knew back then? But but those are good points. And that’s the work that
needs to be done long before we say, look, we did everything we could. Let’s try a medication that’s last resort, in my
opinion. And I think what we do is exactly as you describe, try to figure out why it’s happened in the first place, not
just say, well, it happened. Let’s let’s just treat it symptomatically.
Yeah. So, Doctor Perlmutter, I have to ask you this too. I deal with women. Right. I’m a I’m a hormone doctor. I’m an
endocrine doctor. And I deal with women from 20 to 60. And I see them a lot. And I feel like I was mentioning to you,
these women, you know, as they’re getting into the 50s. 60s a lot of them are getting cognitive dysfunction and we’re
starting to have issues. A lot of them that I’m seeing that have that are also women who maybe weren’t treated
appropriately from a hormone perspective. And so I want your take on hormones. And not all hormones are the same.
And I read about that in my book. Premarin is not the same as a bioidentical micronized progesterone. But do you
think that the increasing rise, you said two thirds of women have dementia. Do you think that this increase.
I said two thirds of demented of Alzheimer’s patients are women are women. I wouldn’t say that two thirds of women
are demented that way.
Sorry. Two thirds. Well, actually, though, if women live long enough. I mean, how many people in their 80s or 90s do
you think have some form of dementia? Probably a pretty high number.
50%.
Yeah, I mean, pretty high.
5 to 50%.
Which is alarming, what you’re saying. If we make it to 80 years.
That’s that’s the most rapidly growing segment of our population. But I think that the overwhelming number of
Alzheimer’s patients being women is not explained by the fact that they live longer, respectfully. I think let’s get back
to our topic. And that is hormones. I think hormones are playing a central and pivotal role.
Yeah. So so can you talk to that? Because I feel like poor I feel bad for the women because I feel like the women who
are now anywhere from 50 to 70, maybe even a little bit older, 55 to 75 lived in this generation where the The w h. I
came out, freaked people out. Everyone got ripped off their hormones. Nobody needs hormones. And so some of
them missed hormones right into their 50s. But now they’re in this predicament where, like I saw a lady yesterday
who was 61 came in menopausal has every menopausal symptom, hot flashes. I mean, she’s just miserable. And I’m
like, let’s put you on a little bit of estradiol. Well, my gynecologist said, I can’t have it because I’m 61. She said that
it’s going to kill me. And my heart doctor said it’s going to kill me. And I just I feel bad for these people who are put in
these situations, which, by the way, her mom had dementia. And one of her biggest complaints to me was I’m hot, I
have vaginal dryness and have UTIs all the time, but I do not want to have dementia like my mom did. That was her
biggest thing. I don’t want dementia. And it’s like, man, you know her FSH is 150. Her lipoprotein A is a little high.
She’s got some metabolic issues, but like in her estrogen, from what I have seen in practice and the studies I’m
reading now, maybe beneficial, maybe even a little bit of testosterone, as long as we do the right dose, the right
frequency, etc.. So what are your thoughts on hormones? Are they really bad? Will they help? Does it help if beta
amyloid plaque is already started? Does it help just prevent it? Like let’s talk about hormones and brain health from
your perspective.

Well, so my perspective for our conversation today is what this Brain Defenders book is all about. And that is the
brain’s microglial cells, those cells that make up the brain’s immune system that are either friend or foe. And as it
turns out, they are very sensitive to estradiol. And through a slightly complicated mechanism. I detail it in the book.
And here’s what happens when the microglia shift from being friend to being foe. So we call it their M1 configuration.
They can digest away the synapses, the connection of one brain cell to the next, and it is the loss of synapses that
explains the functional decline in an Alzheimer’s patient. It’s not the beta amyloid. The beta amyloid in that regard
really doesn’t do anything. You can have a brain full of beta amyloid, but if your synapses are intact and your
neurons are functioning, there’s no problem. So how might that relate to hormones? I’ll explain. When estradiol levels
plummet, as they do at menopause, suddenly your estradiol levels go from a normal supportive level to to rock
bottom. And that’s, as you mentioned, this lady with an. We typically see this elevation of the FSH. Suddenly it
triggers an issue in the brain where the synapses become labeled. They become labeled with something called
complement protein. I mean, those of your audience who’ve studied medicine have heard of this primitive immune
system called the complement system. The complement labels, tags, the synapses, and the signal that it’s holding up
says, eat me to the synapse. It says, eat me. And what? Who reads that card? The microglia come along and digest
away that synapse.
So, in a very real way, the drop of estradiol, by causing this binding to the synapse of this protein called complement,
leads to the synapse being digested away by the activated microglial cell. So yes, the drop of estradiol that makes
that happen, but also the cells that do the digestion destroy the synapses. Are these activated microglial cells that
have become activated because of metabolic issues and inflammation because of elevated blood sugar, insulin
resistance, obesity, hypertension that primes those microglia to then go around and search for those synapses that
have been labeled because the estradiol level has plummeted and digest them away. And lo and behold, the brain
becomes disconnected. So you might ask me, why do you suppose it is that two thirds of Alzheimer’s patients are
women. That’s a powerful understanding of the mechanism, such that Doctor Lisa Mosconi at NYU is conducting a
study right now, a study where a randomized study giving women hormone replacement therapy using estradiol, and
then following these women to determine who does and who doesn’t get Alzheimer’s disease. I think right in line with
what you just said, what a huge disservice for women in general, the extrapolation of the WHI report linking hormone
replacement therapy, which is a nebulous term, to be clear, with increased risk of, for example, breast cancer. It’s
ridiculous. And for any of your patients who would say, as you just recounted, oh, my doctor says I shouldn’t take
hormone replacement therapy because it’ll cause heart disease or breast cancer. Their response should be, you
mean are you talking about estradiol and natural progesterone and perhaps even mentioned testosterone, because
that’s not what the research has ever, ever even studied, much less shown to be risky.
When we talk about hormone replacement therapy, when you and I talk about it, we’re not talking about Premarin
and Provera. We’re not talking about pregnant mare’s urine and methylprogesterone. Methylprogesterone acetate.
We’re talking about natural products that perfectly mimic what a woman’s body produces. And yes, well said.
Women’s bodies require testosterone, the male hormone. A terrible misnomer. It is not the male hormone. Women
need testosterone. Why? What does it do? Well, it has trophic effects in the brain. Yes, but testosterone helps to build
and maintain muscle mass. Why is that important? One of the most powerful risk factors for both all cause mortality
as well as dementia is sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass. So I gotta tell you, you’re so spot on, on target in what
you’re telling your viewers and and what you’re seeing every day. It all comes together. And again, it’s about making
the right metabolic choices. And in women, certainly prior to menopause, understanding where you are measure. Did
I say measure? Yes. Measure again, get a good sense as to what the baseline hormones look like, and then
appropriately use hormone replacement therapy of the type that I just described. And I have to say in the book, I
think I said it this way, I think I said, is what you’re reading indicative of the fact that Doctor Perlmutter me is
supportive of hormone replacement therapy in women? My answer is, you bet.
Amen.
No.

So I didn’t pull the punches.

Yes. And I, and I love that because and again, I kind of got in medicine in this interesting time. I graduated fellowship
in In 2015, 2017, 2017 fellowship. And so I went, you know, endocrinologist, board certified endocrinologist, learned
about hormones. And still in 2017 in fellowship, United States trained fellowship. It was very like, I don’t know, you
probably shouldn’t give women hormones, you should do it in a very low dose, etc.. And when I got out into practice
and I did what I was told, people weren’t getting better, they were getting worse. And, you know, I’ve always been a
very curious person as to why. And I’ve also done my own research, and I’m so glad that that lady is doing that study.
I mean, just what I see, and again, I have not done actual research, but what I’ve read, the doctors I’ve talked to and
what I see in my practice, which is taking care of thousands of women every year, my women that do bioidentical
hormones that we monitor, that we don’t let be crazy levels, that they are metabolizing them correctly. We’re also
talking to them about movement, and we’re talking to them about their insulin resistance. They do so much better
their weight, their insulin, their cholesterol, which I want to talk to you about. Statins, their blood pressure. To your
point, testosterone is so powerful. This is what I tell women. It keeps your muscle. We need muscle because that’s
what keeps us from getting insulin resistant. Like they just do better. And this is how I got on the functional medicine
train, because after four years of traditional medicine and seeing that, wow, people just keep getting sicker and
sicker and sicker and sicker, and I give them more medicine.
And then I flip my practice. Within a year, I was like, oh my gosh, people are getting better. And now I’ve had the
privilege of seeing people for six and seven years on bioidentical hormones, fixing their gut, fixing their insulin. And I
have people that cry almost every day in my clinic. And it is just the most powerful, amazing thing because, I mean,
you’re just teaching them basic things, right? It’s like, it’s not that I’m doing anything crazy, like difficult. It’s just I’m
teaching them to go back and actually fix their body. And then their body kind of fixes themselves. And then to your
point, I’m very lucky in the fact that I take care of a lot of people and there’s not a ton of them that have dementia.
There’s not a ton of them that have cancer there. I mean, it’s just people need to hear this. People need to hear it.
They need to ask questions. We need to do the studies because I think we did women a huge disservice the last 20
plus years. And I don’t think it was purposeful. I don’t think anyone did it to necessarily be mean. But I think that
doctors and patients need to take a step back and they need to demand better research, better education, and we
just need to start over.
And, well, I wish I.
Could say that a lot of my patients over the years didn’t have dementia. You know, obviously being a neurologist,
that was sort of what we did day in and day out.
Right.
And that, you know, has continued to motivate me because it doesn’t have to be that way. This is a preventable
disease. There was a wonderful report came out in The Lancet in 2024 saying that if we paid attention to 14 different
lifestyle issues, we could reduce dementia by 50%. And that’s just 14. And there’s so many other things that they
didn’t mention. Oddly enough, they even mentioned diet, and we wrote a letter to the editor that they did not
publish, I might add. But that said, I think your points are very well taken. And I find it very interesting that even
today, in an endocrinology fellowship like you went through, that they don’t explore at all the largest endocrine organ
in the human body. And that is the muscles. The muscles are endocrine glands. And endocrine gland is a part of the
body that creates chemicals that go elsewhere and do other things, like the thyroid and the adrenals and the
pituitary, right? They secrete these chemicals, these hormone modulators that go throughout the body and do other
things. And the muscles do exactly the same things, the same thing. They create these chemicals called myo,
meaning muscle kind means they move and they go elsewhere throughout the body, including the brain, and do
wonderful things. What happens when these chemicals make their way to the brain? Certain of them like irisin made
by the muscles when we exercise turns on in the brain something called Bdnf that is a growth factor to form new
brain cells. So as we look upon muscles as an endocrine gland, it really helps us double down on the value of
exercise, both resistance training to build bigger muscles and have more of those chemicals available, as well as
endurance training, aerobic training, such that these muscles are activated to help control our metabolism, keep our
blood sugars intact, our insulin functionality where it needs to be, like we talked about earlier.

So again, it’s not a question of making time of finding time to exercise. It’s making time for exercise that’s so
valuable as a daily event. This is part of your general health metabolism program and yes, part of your brain health
program as well. And it’s about metabolism and inflammation. I want to tell you that earlier today, there’s a newer
organization, you know, you know about the Institute for Functional Medicine. There’s a new organization called the
Institute for Functional Dentistry. And so I recorded a presentation for them, a slide presentation for them about the
importance of oral health as it relates to brain health. Who knew that dysbiosis of the mouth can lead to bacteria
making their way to the brain that have been associated with Alzheimer’s disease? That periodontal disease
increases inflammation throughout the body, including the brain, and is dramatically associated with increased risk
for Alzheimer’s disease. So it doesn’t matter whether you’re an endocrinologist or a dentist, or an orthopedic surgeon
or a cardiovascular surgeon, whatever the specialist may be, this is a holistic understanding about how everything
influences everything else. Gastroenterology should be really focused on the health of the microbiome. Yeah. It’s
great to do colonoscopies and take out polyps, I get it. It’s great to, you know, treat people who have reflux. That’s
important. But that’s the bread and butter of gastroenterology. The idea that the microbiome is influencing risk for all
cause mortality, risk for cancer, risk for diabetes, metabolic issues, and yes, risk for Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s
should be part of the purview. But unfortunately, it really isn’t. So it’ll change.
I also think it’s unfortunate that in an endocrinology fellowship, I learned nothing about nutrition, and I also learned
nothing about fat, which is a huge adipose tissue is a huge endocrine organ or the gut, like all of these, you know, if
you think endocrine in general, endocrine study of hormones, hormones are things that are signals. Your adipose
tissue is kind of the largest endocrine organ you may have in your body, because adipose tissue is not benign. If
there’s excess amounts of it, it releases a lot of cytokines released. So I think it’s very unfortunate that in the study of
medicine and especially endocrinology, We don’t talk about the gut. We don’t talk about the muscle and we don’t talk
about fat mass. So I completely agree with you.
Yeah. And I think people have traditionally looked upon fat as basically just this repository of calories. You store fat
and then you burn fat when you don’t have access to food. End of story. And the point you made, I think, is extremely
valuable that fat regulates our body metabolism. It regulates its own metabolism. And so does it influence at a
distance to define endocrine gland. You bet it does. I mean it is fat that’s producing these inflammatory cytokines, as
well as other tissues that make their way to the brain and convert our healthy brain defender microglial cells to being
brain destroyer, the evil twin. And that is again, you know, this central understanding. Now, science magazine,
science technology magazine called that the greatest breakthrough. This understanding of 2025, the role of the
microglia in neurodegenerative conditions, and they are responsive to inflammation that can come from fat, can

come from a leaky gut, and therefore be related to the foods that we eat. You know, when we eat very pro-
inflammatory food, like the ultra processed foods, that doesn’t bode well for the brain. I mean, here we are in

America, where 60% of the calories consumed as an average by adults comes from these ultra processed foods.
And, you know, one recent study followed a group of 20,000 individuals for 12.7 years, and they did food frequency
questionnaires. And what are you eating? And then after the 12.7 years, we determined who got dementia and who
didn’t. And what they found was as an average, if you consume one serving of ultra processed foods, one handful of
chips a day, one serving is associated with 18% increased risk of Alzheimer’s for each serving. And that for people
who consume ten or more servings a day, their risk of Alzheimer’s is increased 300%. Actually, it’s 270%. 2.7 fold.
And again, that’s those people consuming ten or more handfuls of ultra processed foods a day, getting a triple risk for
Alzheimer’s. Now we get it because that level of inflammation of blood sugar, elevation of insulin resistance that
develop targets, the microglial cells. These scans change. This Tspo imaging I mentioned earlier changed shows that
microglia are activated. And that’s an environment within the brain that is not hospitable.
That’s so scary. But I believe it. And I tell people it’s kind of like your car. You wouldn’t take your nice car. Let’s say
you own a Ferrari. You’re not going to take it and put sugar water in it, right? You’re going to put the gasoline your
car requires in your car, and you’re going to take it to the mechanic and you’re going to get your oil changed. You’re
going to. But yet we dump this crap in our body and it is complete crap, ultra processed foods. And then we’re like,
well, why are our outputs so bad? Why do I have brain fog? Because you didn’t give your body any sort of good input
to be able to do what it needs to do to give you a good output. And so that’s alarming, but I believe it. And I talk in
my book too, in the first section about like, we’ve got to fix the food. You need to be eating single ingredient whole
foods. If you’re eating foods that are in a wrapper, they need to have five or less ingredients, and none of them
should be sugar or any form of sugar. You kind of need to think about like when I sat down or I try to eat, I always
think about my grandma. I went to my grandma’s house as a kid, lived, you know, farm made everything fresh.
Everything was just like single ingredient foods. Like she just didn’t have things that were canned unless she made it,
you know? And so it’s just like, we just need to go back to that. Like you take a food, you cook it, you eat it, or you
mix it with a food that, you know, you cook and eat. I mean, it’s really not that difficult, is it? I don’t know, it’s just
crazy.

Well, you know, I think one of the biggest issues that people fear is declining brain health. Alzheimer’s in particular, it
is feared more than cancer. And it’s this idea of losing your ability to care for yourself that is so threatening for
people. And, and I think what we’re doing in brain defenders is really giving people the keys to the kingdom, giving
each reader the tools so that they can finally stop the fear and not live in fear of this event because you can offload
the risk dramatically. This book has already been picked up by 16 countries languages around the world. So that’s
the first time this has happened in one of my books. And this will be book number 16. And to see that there’s a global
interest in preserving brain health and functionality through making lifestyle choices is very, very exciting. So, you
know, we’ve been talking about this for an awful long time, but what I’m getting at is the traction that we’re seeing
now from people who are just fed up with the idea of live my life however I choose, and then hope for a miracle
pharmaceutical fix. That isn’t reality. There is no pharmaceutical fix. If there were, I would embrace it. I would
absolutely say, you know what? The guy did the best he could and now he’s got early Alzheimer’s. Is there a drug
that works? There is. Let’s give it to him. You bet I would. We’re not there yet, but I am. I’m encouraged, based upon
the research that I’m seeing, that we will soon see such a drug. And it will work through targeting the brain’s immune
cells, the microglia. The take home message here is that we can do that right now by getting our metabolic mayhem
back in shape.
I love that. So do you talk at all in the book about statins? Because that’s another thing women want to talk a lot
about is, you know, from a heart perspective, doctors want women’s cholesterol, like 50, Their LDL. I don’t
understand that. What really matters is your LDL to HDL particle size, etc. and then there’s this research that shows,
well, we actually need cholesterol in our brain in order for our brain to work, just like we need cholesterol for our cell
membranes to work. And so I feel like women also get the other battle women have is like, well, my cardiologist
wants me to take this high dose statin to make my LDL 50. And when I do it, it hurts my muscles or whatnot. Or I’ve
read that I need cholesterol for my brain. I’m kind of in the camp of it’s just not LDL. We need to look at your
lipoprotein particles. We need to look at your ratio.
I think you are absolutely spot on as it relates to that. And I think that it’s very important. I think that it is a clear and
present issue as it relates to cardiovascular health and risk for coronary artery disease. And I would say that
fortunately, nowadays, in the past few years, we’ve seen the development of these Pcsk9 inhibitor drugs that I think
are far more effective, seemingly far safer, not inhibiting the metabolic pathway that makes coenzyme Q10 in our
bodies, which is what the statins can do. And I think they’re much more selective. And as I mentioned, far more
effective drugs like repatha. And just two weeks ago, we saw the release of an oral drug that works through this
pathway. So I think that story is unfolding. I would say we also cover in the book, I think, you know, the biggest topic
de jure as it relates to medication, and that is looking at the various choices that people have traditionally had for
diabetes. Now for obesity, these GLP one drugs, GLP one agonist drugs. You know, everybody wants to know, well,
will semaglutide be a good thing for my brain? It certainly let me lose weight and control my blood sugar. And we’re
getting some early reports that are very promising that GLP one agonist drugs may indeed be effective in Alzheimer’s
and have already proven very effective as it relates to stopping the decline in Parkinson’s. One study published in
May of 2024 in the New England Journal of Medicine, followed 151 Parkinson’s patients, half received placebo, half
got a GLP one agonist drug over one year. The group receiving the placebo declined, as one would expect in
Parkinson’s. The group receiving the GLP one agonist drug actually stabilized, so that’s revolutionary. This drug
targets the fire, not just the smoke, meaning, yes, we have drugs for the symptoms of Parkinson’s, the rigidity and
tremor. But now targeting the underlying issue, which is activation of the brain’s immune cells and to becoming
threatening. So we lose our brain defenders and our brain destroyers become activated. What we’ve been talking
about in our time together today.
I love that because I see that too. And it makes sense to me because GLP ones lower inflammation by lowering insulin
resistance and insulin resistance is what’s killing your brain. So I love when I hear stuff like this and I, I see it in my
practice and I can explain it to patients, but I love that we’re actually having studies that show that.
And as it relates to yours truly, it’s a statement that I make that, you know, my mission isn’t to think outside the box.
My mission is to make the box bigger. And by that, I mean if there’s a good risk to benefit ratio on anything, whether
it’s GLP one or whatever it may be, it works and it’s not risky. I will embrace it, but my commitment is to do the due
diligence on the front end. Let’s be sure it’s safe. Let’s be sure it works. Let a reasonable amount of time elapse that
we know this is a safe intervention. And if it’s helping people, then I’m in. So, you know, people expect me to be, oh,
it’s all, you know, lifestyle, the right foods, etc. it’s what, you know, the mission has been for years. But please
understand that I’m open to whatever will work in a situation like that. Having been through that situation with my
father, believe me, I get it. I know what it’s like, and I will. I will embrace whatever can help people and is not going to
risk them.

Well, I love that Doctor Perlmutter. It’s like you are a good doctor. It’s like you want to help take care of people and
you want, you know.
The nicest compliment you could make. Thank you.
I think. Well, I think here’s the thing. What doctors and I tell people this, like we shouldn’t have egos. I’m the first one
to be like, I don’t know everything. I’m never going to call anyone’s baby ugly, but it’s my job to, like you said, it’s my
job to listen to a patient to help them understand the risks and benefits of the issues they’re having, the symptoms
they have, and then to help guide them the best way that’s best for them. I might not always agree with everything
that somebody wants to do, but my job is not to be, you know, judgmental or to it’s just to make sure you don’t harm
yourself and to make sure that you have the information that you need to make educated medical decisions about
how you want to live your life. And so I think that that’s amazing when people are like that because some people are
very much like, oh, you know, I’m not gonna say that anything outside the American neurological guidelines is okay.
And that’s what makes you an awesome person. And that’s what makes you, I think, driven to do the work that you’re
doing is because when you see things just like me, when I see things that make people better, I may be, you know, I
was the weirdest endocrinologist in the world for a long time because I’m talking about gut health and I’m talking
about insulin. And but I was like, guys, this is helping thousands of people and it’s not hurting them. So let’s do it.
Like, let’s embrace it. And then if something comes out and says it’s bad, then I won’t. But I there was enough time
that went by that patients were getting better. And I’m like, who am I to withhold this information from people to
make them better? I think that’s so cool.
Amen.

I love that. So this has been I’ve loved this. This is so amazing. I want to really quickly ask you three questions. First
word that comes to your brain. And then I’m going to let you tell everyone where they can get your book, etc. but I
think this will be interesting. What is one food that’s most beneficial and why? For brain health?
Salmon YDHA.
I love that. What is one thing anyone listening to this podcast right now can do that’s 100% free? That would make
their brain health better.
Exercise y. It’s sending great chemicals to your brain.
I love that you talked about Myokines too. I wrote about it in my book and my some people that read it were like,
what? I’m like, yes, this is real. And the third thing is, what is one thing you wish you knew about your health that you
would have done differently 50 years ago that would have helped your brain health?
Flossed.
Interesting. I like that and I agree. I actually have a functional dentist that I’m interviewing shortly for my podcast
that explains how mouth health actually affects infertility and all sorts of stuff.
Oh yeah. Absolutely.
That’s very interesting. Well, I am so appreciative of your time. I know you’re a very busy person. I’m so excited to
talk about brain defenders on social. I’m going to get my coffee. I’m going to demand that all my patients read it. I
think this is it’s very powerful, good information. So I appreciate you writing it and spending your life’s work, doing all
these amazing things. And just for your time, can you tell everyone where they can get the book if they’re interested,
where they can find out more about you? Anything you want us to help you promote?

Brain Defenders is the title. The website is, oddly enough, brain defenders.com. And if people go there, if they’ve
bought the book, wherever you buy the book, Amazon or Barnes and Noble, wherever you buy the book, go to Brain
defenders because there are all kinds of gifts that people get discounts on this and that once you put in your that
you’ve bought the book and there’s a course that we’re offering a free course as well, and a discount for people, all
kinds of great stuff that we have on that site.
Okay. So we’ll make sure and link that in the show notes too. But I appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being on
the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me. Bye bye for now.
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